Curse

wu is me · Nov 03, 2007, 06:42 AM // 06:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I see each playthrough through the game as a seperate playthrough through the game. Simple as that. Wether i consider that playthrough a development of the character is actually irrelevant.

Yea i can completely understand if you would prefer a game that closer resembles real life... Its just no game that i'd ever play, but this IS a discussion on whether or not the proposal should go through

You completely missed the point of my argument -_-.
Im quite sure my point was clear, and if you would take the liberty of re-reading the my post I hope you'll see it because nowhere in that post did i make any argument for or against the proposal, as was the case in the post fish quoted.

You Cannot Argue for/against the proposal on the basis of "REALISM".
You Cannot Argue for/against the proposal on the basis of "NECESSITY"
The trade off is between roleplaying (realism), and gameplay (Abstraction)

At this stage i really can't see any point in continuing the discussion, aside from people who support the decision, cos if you don't understand the merits of an account based system now, you prolly never will =/

freekedoutfish · Nov 03, 2007, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by wu is me

At this stage i really can't see any point in continuing the discussion, aside from people who support the decision, cos if you don't understand the merits of an account based system now, you prolly never will =/

So you dont want anyone who is against this idea to post any replies? Thats always the best way to have a debate isnt it, by just ignoring those who apose it!

Ofcourse there are merits to having most titles account based and IMO the wisdom, treasure hunter and drunk'n ones should be because they are just meaningless titles that do nothing except at a % level to your lockpick.

But those merits are nothing more then making it easier for each of your characters to have more maxed titles without actually putting most of the effort in.

You dont need to have all the titles maxed out on all the characters you create. Yes you might want it, but why do you need it?

Why shouuld a lvl1 be KOABD or higher? a title that is intended to show the effort put in by an individual. Rationalise that for me!

Why wont you accept that its not Anet's fault or business if you choose to max all these titles out on every character you own?

I only accept that the wisdom, treasure hunter and drunk'en title should be account based because they have HUGE max levels and they dont give any staggering benefit to pve, if at all.

GWEN, SS/LB and Faction titles dont need to be account based, purely because there is no pressure or force to max them out on all your characters.

You dont need rank10 drawf, Norn, Asura and Vanguard on every character you own. Its not going to give you any edge that you need to progress.

You dont need SS/LB maxed out on all your characters to play NF and the same goes for faction titles.

Why can you not accept that it isnt Anets reponsibilty whether you choose to max these titles out on all your characters? Stop trying to pass the buck and blame them. They havent pressured you into doing it, they havent forced you or cohersed you into it.

There are no barriers in place to prevent you creating new characters, becase none of this stufff your winging about grinding, needs to be grinded!

Your characters are all perfectly capable of playing the game without maxing all the same titles out. No one judges you on titles, so you cant argue its a peer pressure thing.

Also most of these titles you want to make account based, come with status effects or increase pve only skill damage or effects. Why should a player be able to start a new game or GWEN with instant +damage or +protecton against a certain creature?

It make no sense because they didnt earn that right as a character. They have never set foot in that land or that continent and somehow they have a maxed out status effect which gives extra damage?

That just makes no sense! It also gives them an edge (not important one) against new players, if they can do early quests or dungeons which include destroyers and they instantly have +15 damage against them.

How can a character who has never even seen a destroyer before have +damage against it? it removes the entire point and the difficulty from the game. It kills the storyline and turns on its head if a player can have something from a land they never been to.

I bet if they did this and made it account based, people would start complaining GWEN and NF were too easy because their characters all suddenly had maxed status effects and maxed pve only titles instantly.

lyra_song · Nov 03, 2007, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Player 1 with 1 character grinds for 50hrs to get their max title and gets to use the effect 100% of their play time.
Player 2 with 10 characters grinds for 50hrs to get their max title and gets to use effect 10% of their play time.

Thats the very definition of inequality.

Player 1 grinds 1 character and gets 100% effect.
Player 2 has 10 characters but each character has 100% effect of their title equal to the time spent with that character.

Thats equal.

Just because player 1 chooses to grind only 1 character is not a matter of fairness to player 2.

Player 2 not having more time is not a game problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wu is me

Yea i can completely understand if you would prefer a game that closer resembles real life... Its just no game that i'd ever play, but this IS a discussion on whether or not the proposal should go through

This isnt about realism. Its about a functioning game design that people want to change.

Quote:

You Cannot Argue for/against the proposal on the basis of "REALISM".
You Cannot Argue for/against the proposal on the basis of "NECESSITY"
The trade off is between roleplaying (realism), and gameplay (Abstraction)

This isnt about realism. Its about a functioning game design that people want to change.

The game progresses through gameplay.

Turning certain titles that is gained through PvE gameplay, into an account based titles which affects all gameplay breaks this very basic game design.

Quote:

At this stage i really can't see any point in continuing the discussion, aside from people who support the decision, cos if you don't understand the merits of an account based system now, you prolly never will =/

I will repeat it AGAIN. Just because i disagree, doesn't mean I don't understand. Stop using ad hominem.

I completely understand the proposal, and I dont agree with it. If i didnt understand it, and disagreed with it, that would be ignorant.

Sometimes i have problems articulating my exact reasoning, but that doesn't make it any less valid, or make me ignorant of your posts.

MithranArkanere · Nov 04, 2007, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Nah. By doing so. People are forced to focus in one single character.
Look at PvP, it doen't matter which profession you use.

You can say "Oh, nobody is forced". But they are. If they want to catch those who focus in one single character, they have to do so. You only can show one character at a time.

The same should be in PvP, so people don't think on getting more slots as something futile, since they will never fully enjoy them.

bilateralrope · Nov 04, 2007, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Player 1 grinds 1 character and gets 100% effect.
Player 2 has 10 characters but each character has 100% effect of their title equal to the time spent with that character.

Thats equal.

Just because player 1 chooses to grind only 1 character is not a matter of fairness to player 2.

But what if they were doing it for different classes, and ANET then comes along and nerfs everything player 2 was grinding for to the point where it is useless ?
They both put in similar work, but now only player 1 has any reward for it. Player 2 is screwed over even more if they had to chose between the class they did grind for and the class player 1 has.

To give an actual example of this, lets say player 1 only has a necromancer, player 2 has a necro and monk. This is before seed of life got nerfed.

Player 1 grinds up sunspear on their necro for Necrosis. Player 2 decides that Seed of Life would be more useful a skill to grind up so chooses his monk. So they both go grind it up using wurms, meaning the work is identical for them. Then the nerf comes and even though they both put in identical work, only player 1 benefits post-nerf because he chose the class that didn't have the nerf.

If we go account based then even after the nerf player 2 would still have stat bonuses to show for it. But with character based titles I don't see how the above situation is fair.

cellardweller · Nov 04, 2007, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Player 1 grinds 1 character and gets 100% effect.
Player 2 has 10 characters but each character has 100% effect of their title equal to the time spent with that character.

Thats equal.

Just because player 1 chooses to grind only 1 character is not a matter of fairness to player 2.

Player 2 not having more time is not a game problem.

It doesn't matter how much time player 1 has. They could be playing 24x7 and they'd still have less access to the effects than a player with one character. Player 1 doesn't have a right more effect for less work just because they play with a single character

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

You dont need to have all the titles maxed out on all the characters you create. Yes you might want it, but why do you need it?

When we are talking about a game, there is on one NEED - the need to have FUN. From your posts I can gather that the only thing you need to have fun is to be completing a storyline. For players like me the game doesn't begin until the story line is complete all stats are maxed and the playing field is level. What character based titles does is take the time to make an account play ready from about 10-30hrs per toon to hundreds of hours per toon.

This is a gaming NEED, I can tell you that because since the title based skills have been introduced, My gw time has dropped from 15-20hrs a week down to 2-4 hours a week. Without a level playing field, the game isn't fun. Even if I did choose to spend the thousands hours required to max out the titles on all the toons across my account, it wouldn't do any good because unless every other player did too, the playing field would still not be level.

Solas · Nov 04, 2007, 01:36 AM // 01:36

signed for the idea about having effects account wide but title char based.
solves the whoel thing for me.

lyra_song · Nov 04, 2007, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by bilateralrope

But what if they were doing it for different classes, and ANET then comes along and nerfs everything player 2 was grinding for to the point where it is useless ?
They both put in similar work, but now only player 1 has any reward for it. Player 2 is screwed over even more if they had to chose between the class they did grind for and the class player 1 has.

To give an actual example of this, lets say player 1 only has a necromancer, player 2 has a necro and monk. This is before seed of life got nerfed.

Player 1 grinds up sunspear on their necro for Necrosis. Player 2 decides that Seed of Life would be more useful a skill to grind up so chooses his monk. So they both go grind it up using wurms, meaning the work is identical for them. Then the nerf comes and even though they both put in identical work, only player 1 benefits post-nerf because he chose the class that didn't have the nerf.

If we go account based then even after the nerf player 2 would still have stat bonuses to show for it. But with character based titles I don't see how the above situation is fair.

Im aware of your PvE skill example since you posted it in the OP as "resistant to nerf" reasons.

I disregard it as a valid reason simply because PvE skills are not part mandatory or part main storyline to recieve any special concession.

What about when skills are nerfed and whole builds died out because of a skill nerf?
What if a player spent time and money on specific equipment designed around those builds?

nerfs happen.
They affect players.
They affect specific classes.
They affect specific builds.

Your example is flawed, since a skill nerf that makes a skill useless affects all players who use that skill, regardless of however that skill was obtained.

Elite skills that get nerfed, any character who capped the elite would have a useless skill, and wasted their time and money capping (or grinding balth points)

You make it seem like PvE skills getting nerfed is something so special.

MithranArkanere · Nov 04, 2007, 02:13 AM // 02:13

But it's not only about PvE skills.

Let's look at the title that has a more logical reason tobe come account wide:
Seeker of Wisdom. Now Let's make a level 1 character in Factions or Nightfall. Let's leave it in the first Town. Never play with it.
- Will it ever earn a not identified gold? No. You don't play with it.
- Can you get Seeker of wisdom? Yes you can. Maxed.
- Who gets the gold items? The other characters.
- Whom is the merit of? Of the other characters.
- Can other characters benefit from it? Yes, the can use the Xunlai storage and trade stuff so the level 2 salvages them.
- Is it account wide? YES.

Let's look now to Treasure hunter.
- Can a level 2 get it? No. In Factions and Nightfall It's impossible to get to high end chest areas without earning EXP. And to get to chests, people has to kill some stuff. Only those who go out there and open chests. Get points.
- Is it account wide? NO.

Now look at Skill hunter.
- Can a level 2 get it? Yes.
- Can other characters benefit from it? No.
- It's account wide? NO.

See how it is?

Now for the Promotion and Reputation points.
- Can a level 1 get it? Yes.
- Can the other characters benefit from it? Yea! It's account wide!
- It is account wide? YES, it is, XDDD.
Its is done for Luxon/Kurcick. Yeah, you can earn those points in PvP, but you can do so also without ever stepping in a PvP area. Yet you have to earn the points. In that title, having more characters is better since the quests are the fastests way to get the points.

So...

Irregular. Everything must be regular like crystals and fractals. Challenges in all campaings, insigniaan inscriptions in all campaings, etc...
Everything the same.
To make things regular, either the Luxon/Kurzcik splits, or the others merge.

Yeah. Regular, like crystals.

lyra_song · Nov 04, 2007, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Now for the Promotion and Reputation points.
- Can a level 1 get it? Yes.
- Can the other characters benefit from it? Yea! It's account wide!
- It is account wide? YES, it is, XDDD.
Its is done for Luxon/Kurcick. Yeah, you can earn those points in PvP, but you can do so also without ever stepping in a PvP area. Yet you have to earn the points. In that title, having more characters is better since the quests are the fastests way to get the points.

So...

Irregular. Everything must be regular like crystals and fractals. Challenges in all campaings, insigniaan inscriptions in all campaings, etc...
Everything the same.
To make things regular, either the Luxon/Kurzcik splits, or the others merge.

Yeah. Regular, like crystals.

I did agree to Seeker of Wisdom being account based, because its effects (unlocking) affect the whole account with every ID.

but on to the kurz/lux thing...

You can earn Luxon/Kurzick without ever stepping into PvE. You can earn it without ever stepping into PvP.

Luxon/Kurzick cannot be split unless you want to removed PvP as an option to earn it. This isnt possible because of the PvP/PvE missions in Factions specifically.

This complicates Lux/Kurz from ever being simply a PvE based title or a PvP based title, even without the Pve skill attachment.

Using the kurz/lux as an example, we can make Those other titles account based if we can add pvp ways to gain those points.

That way it becomes a measure of the player and not the character.

Snow Bunny · Nov 04, 2007, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I did agree to Seeker of Wisdom being account based, because its effects (unlocking) affect the whole account with every ID.

but on to the kurz/lux thing...

You can earn Luxon/Kurzick without ever stepping into PvE. You can earn it without ever stepping into PvP.

Luxon/Kurzick cannot be split unless you want to removed PvP as an option to earn it. This isnt possible because of the PvP/PvE missions in Factions specifically.

This complicates Lux/Kurz from ever being simply a PvE based title or a PvP based title, even without the Pve skill attachment.

Using the kurz/lux as an example, we can make Those other titles account based if we can add pvp ways to gain those points.

That way it becomes a measure of the player and not the character.

Luxon/Kurzick is a terrible counterpoint to use, you do all understand this, right?

The original conception of that title track did not include anything pve-based, except, perhaps, the path you took for Faction's later missions, and even then, a miniscule effect.

The quests in game weren't meant to be the primary means of acquiring faction; ab was. These titles were meant to display perhaps how many battles/experience you had with AB. Not to confer benefits.

So stop using this example. Lucky/Unlucky was just stupidity on the side of ANet, or perhaps, the inclination of ANet to make shit unnecessarily easy to acquire, in this case, account wide titles.

arcanemacabre · Nov 04, 2007, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

The quests in game weren't meant to be the primary means of acquiring faction; ab was. These titles were meant to display perhaps how many battles/experience you had with AB. Not to confer benefits.

In case you weren't aware, the "Friend of..." titles were only for showing how much faction you donated to your alliance, that's it. The only reason for donating faction, aside from the title, were the obvious PvE benefits of town owning, and ultimately, the elite missions. The reward for those account-based titles were always PvE-only.

They were never a way of showing your experience with AB, since there were PvE ways of getting Faction, and in fact, the quickest way to get the Faction were the repeatable quests, not AB.

The Kurzick/Luxon titles are in fact the best example of a PvE title, with PvE benefits, that's account-based. The fact that you can get the faction by doing "PvP" is just another means of getting the titles, which make them even that much easier (and fun) than any of the rep titles, Sunspear, and Lightbringer - yet they are the ones that are account-based. To me, that is the biggest divide in standards with the character-based vs. account-based titles that have skills/effects. I honestly don't see how people can be ok with that, but not ok with this suggestion.

Snow Bunny · Nov 05, 2007, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

In case you weren't aware, the "Friend of..." titles were only for showing how much faction you donated to your alliance, that's it. The only reason for donating faction, aside from the title, were the obvious PvE benefits of town owning, and ultimately, the elite missions. The reward for those account-based titles were always PvE-only.

They were never a way of showing your experience with AB, since there were PvE ways of getting Faction, and in fact, the quickest way to get the Faction were the repeatable quests, not AB.

The Kurzick/Luxon titles are in fact the best example of a PvE title, with PvE benefits, that's account-based. The fact that you can get the faction by doing "PvP" is just another means of getting the titles, which make them even that much easier (and fun) than any of the rep titles, Sunspear, and Lightbringer - yet they are the ones that are account-based. To me, that is the biggest divide in standards with the character-based vs. account-based titles that have skills/effects. I honestly don't see how people can be ok with that, but not ok with this suggestion.

The Kurz/Lux titles were meant to provide an indicator of experience in the AB arenas, much in the same fashion that the hero titles do.

So.....

GG.

These titles had no bonus whatsoever for essentially a year. It was only after the ridiculous modifications with respect to making them much more easily obtainable and the addition of broken faction title skills that pve'ers paid them any attention.

You're still failing, this argument is still pointless, and it's the same 3 people whining about this.

arcanemacabre · Nov 05, 2007, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

The Kurz/Lux titles were meant to provide an indicator of experience in the AB arenas, much in the same fashion that the hero titles do.

So.....

GG.

These titles had no bonus whatsoever for essentially a year. It was only after the ridiculous modifications with respect to making them much more easily obtainable and the addition of broken faction title skills that pve'ers paid them any attention.

You're still failing, this argument is still pointless, and it's the same 3 people whining about this.

Did you read anything I typed? Apparently not. If you can acquire the titles via PvE, and much faster at that, how are they any indication of how much experience you have in AB? Serious question.

Also, the titles had no bonus, but donating faction did - and it was purely PvE-related. It doesn't matter if the titles had an effect at first anyway, since they do now. Are you seriously arguing facts, here?

Snow Bunny · Nov 05, 2007, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Did you read anything I typed? Apparently not. If you can acquire the titles via PvE, and much faster at that, how are they any indication of how much experience you have in AB? Serious question.

Also, the titles had no bonus, but donating faction did - and it was purely PvE-related. It doesn't matter if the titles had an effect at first anyway, since they do now. Are you seriously arguing facts, here?

I am arguing facts.

Simply because yours are wrong.

FFF wasn't an intended way of gathering faction.
AB is a PvP arena, despite the rock-bottom skill level required. The titles were to indicate experience in those arenas for the purpose of grouping up....like HA.

And they didn't have an effect previously, except for the one mentioned, thus, they were account wide for the purpose of rolling pvp characters.

Just because ANet has a synapse misfire and introduces a bunch of shitty skills to dumb this game down doesn't mean that the original purpose of the title changes.

So....

where are you right again?

arcanemacabre · Nov 05, 2007, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

FFF wasn't an intended way of gathering faction.
AB is a PvP arena, despite the rock-bottom skill level required. The titles were to indicate experience in those arenas for the purpose of grouping up....like HA.

Getting faction through repeatable quests was intended, ya know, since Anet designed it that way. Designed as a faster way to get faction is what's debatable, not that it was a way to get faction. The titles once proved only one thing - that you believed in your alliance enough to contribute to it. Remember, you could always buy Jade and Amber with it, which then didn't add anything to the title.

You could be extremely "skilled" in AB/JQ/FA, but only purchase Jade and Amber; or grinding the faction quests and put it all into your title. So that said, how is the title proof of anything but what you spend your faction on? You're arguing your view of the facts, rather than the truth. You're simply wrong.

freekedoutfish · Nov 05, 2007, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

I am arguing facts.

Simply because yours are wrong.

FFF wasn't an intended way of gathering faction.
AB is a PvP arena, despite the rock-bottom skill level required. The titles were to indicate experience in those arenas for the purpose of grouping up....like HA.

And they didn't have an effect previously, except for the one mentioned, thus, they were account wide for the purpose of rolling pvp characters.

Just because ANet has a synapse misfire and introduces a bunch of shitty skills to dumb this game down doesn't mean that the original purpose of the title changes.

So....

where are you right again?

How about they just add handbooks to the earlier 2 or 3 campaigns to make it easier to earn points for their specialise titles. That should make it alot easier and we dont need to make titles account based.

The problem isnt making titles account based, its making it easier to get those points. GWEN points are very easy to get because of handbooks and dungeon guides, so why not use the same system in factions and NF?

Snow Bunny · Nov 05, 2007, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

How about they just add handbooks to the earlier 2 or 3 campaigns to make it easier to earn points for their specialise titles. That should make it alot easier and we dont need to make titles account based.

The problem isnt making titles account based, its making it easier to get those points. GWEN points are very easy to get because of handbooks and dungeon guides, so why not use the same system in factions and NF?

It's really about the titles, I think, for most people that want this.

If it's not about the titles, then good. Have what you want.

freekedoutfish · Nov 05, 2007, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

It's really about the titles, I think, for most people that want this.

If it's not about the titles, then good. Have what you want.

How can it not be about what I mentioned?

people are complaining because they dont want to do the same thing over and over again to get the same end result. Obviously turning the title system on its head to remove grind is just stupid, so why not just fix how we earn those titles?

Most of the titles in question just rely on earning points, so make those pointss easier to get like in GWEN.

Problem solved... use gwens system in other campaigns.

BlackSephir · Nov 05, 2007, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

people are complaining because they dont want to do the same thing over and over again to get the same end result.

And yet doing the same dungeons and missions over and over again isn't grind?

Quote:

That should make it alot easier and we dont need to make titles account based.

Quote:

Most of the titles in question just rely on earning points, so make those pointss easier to get like in GWEN.

-_0
Grind was always easy. That's not why people are complaining. People are complaining because grind is repeative, boring, unchallenging task and moreover makes grindy character better than non-grindy character even tho' they both can have the same skillbars.